General Question: Seller Misrepresentation

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General Question: Seller Misrepresentation

Post by Doc » April 21st, 2005, 5:48 am

http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa? ... 4070064054

General Question: Seller Misrepresentation
wcphye (75 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 10:26 PDT
Recently won an auction for a 68 El Camino. Seller had 12 positive feedbacks - many of which were for transactions on eBay Motors. Car was stated to have new battery, stater and alternator; no rust; handle easily; good tires; start and run fine; 350 ci engine and 3 speed turbo at; new paint; etc... And, stated "AS IS."

Based on Vehicle Protection in auction, 12 positive feedback, description and numerous photos, I managed to bid enought to win the auction. First contact with seller, in email, he adv, "...to cheap...". Later in person on phone he told me he thought would sell for a few thousand more and he was alread out money.

So far: car DOA at shipper destination, dead battery & would not jump; towed to my home - $75; battery - $95; distributor just rotating on shaft, wrong & broken plugs in car - $250 & -$75 for 2nd tow to shop; plugs - $17.50; no gas cap and car in San Diego monsoon, Iso-Heet - $1.15; starter and solenoid shot - $64.28; stablizer bar mounting bolts: 1 missing & other worn out - $15; while under car noticed cv boots torn and 1 ball joint bent and almost broken off - $$.$$; vacuum lines cut or missing; electric lines cut and hanging from firewall or inside dash board; heater/defroster not functioning and leaking heater core return line; rear tires shot; chrome rims rusty; driver and passenger foot rest area - rusted thru but covered up new floor carpet; what next - ??

Anyway, to date, filed claims with eBay Fraud, Vehicle Protection people & Auction Insurance. In essence, eBay told me, if auction properly worded, nothing they could do. Auction Insurance only provides coverage if title not delivered.

Seller told me and Brian Benson at Auction Insurance, he would pay to replace battery and rear tires. Has he provide money, no! Last time I talked to him, on the phone, I told him I was out nearly a $1,000.00 for his AS IS car. He told me he was on the other phone line.

Seller has become unregistered - for eBay feedback purposes [until after 90 day window - I'm sure]. And, my only recourse is San Diego Small Claims, which is in motion.

So my question is, if it is possible to trace DNA back to Lucy, with over 666,666 hits when doing Internet search on "eBay complaints", why can't eBay stop these sellers from ripping people off?

24 replies Date posted Reply #
2*many*cars (182 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 11:02 PDT 1 of 24
auction #?


kingrandyautomall (1 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 11:34 PDT 2 of 24
Get a life. Do your homework before buying.


larryonline (14 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 11:53 PDT 3 of 24
You bought it as is you should pay for the repairs next time go look at what you are bidding on. I have never seen a CV boot on a 68 El Camino.Is this the front wheel drive version? Odd car.


tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 12:13 PDT 4 of 24
Frankly, you're stupid.

It's a 68 model, nearly 40 years old. Its going to need work.

You could have bought the correct battery at Wal-Mart for about $35.

Yeah, you're stupid.

So stupid, in fact, that you stink.


wcphye (75 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 14:47 PDT 5 of 24
2*many*cars (182 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 11:02 PDT 1 of 4
auction #?

4531492937
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kingrandyautomall (1 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 11:34 PDT 2 of 4
Get a life. Do your homework before buying.

Thanks. I do have a life. A pretty good one at that.

In part, I guess you are correct. I stopped studying eBay Motor auctions before I got to the part where it says they will not make a seller behind, in front or beside their respective auction descriptions. When a vehicle is described AS IS, a seller should be responsible for delivering a vehicle that is as described. Or, compensate buyer accordingly for properly documented repairs and/or replacement parts to get the vehicle back up to the benchmark condition of "AS IS."
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larryonline (14 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 11:53 PDT 3 of 4
You bought it as is you should pay for the repairs next time go look at what you are bidding on. I have never seen a CV boot on a 68 El Camino.Is this the front wheel drive version? Odd car.

Sorry. Complaining about my auction and reading invoice for the repair of a replaced cv boot on my wife's Volvo - transposed info.

Reagrdless, the respective acution description had lot of specific detail regarding what the car had and was. And, then it said, "AS IS." I am complaining about the repairs that I am repairing/paying for that were stated to be new, good, working, ...

Where is the part in the auction agreement where it says a seller can say what ever they want to and it doesn't matter if it is true or not. Maybe future auction descriptions should have that final window where seller indicates: part true, some what true, just a little white lie. Please, bid accordingly!
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tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 12:13 PDT 4 of 4
Frankly, you're stupid.

It's a 68 model, nearly 40 years old. Its going to need work.

You could have bought the correct battery at Wal-Mart for about $35.

Yeah, you're stupid.

So stupid, in fact, that you stink.

Two things stink: 1) your inability to understand that more inexpensive parts have less durability and have to be replaced more frequently. Which generally ends up costing more money than if a better quality part was purchased in the first place; 2) In your opinion then, are you saying it was alright for the car to be mostly other than described?; therefore, is it my fault I took the auction description as described, from a member that had, at the time, 12 positive feedback?

If so, what happened to being able to believe people? What happened to being able to trust people? If so, are you saying, a person's feedback rating holds little to no value? If so, yours is included.

A person is an entity. A corp, llc, is an entity. If an entity can't be trusted, what is it good for?


tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 15:34 PDT 6 of 24
That's pretty good. Reading an invoice and your silly little brain starts typing what you read!

Like I said, you're stupid.

Did you complain about the stone pebble in the tire tread on the ElCamino, too?


mrelmwood (435 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 15:48 PDT 7 of 24
As you may have noticed, this is a tough place to get any sympathy.

Some seller's lie. Lie through their teeth. The problem here is that you relied on words, not on an actual inspection.

When I bought my '83 BMW 320i, 4 years ago, it was "safetied" and ready for the road. I did not believe that. What I wanted was a car I could register, and, I got that. The rear brakes did not work, right front caliper was sticking, hi beams only, no reverse lights, no signals, CD player blew up, battery died, muffler fell off, heater fan not working, engine overheating.

My time and a small amount of dollars I am a happy camper.

Batteries? Half of all batteries off the line are bad. New elecrical components? Trust them only if you bought them and have the warranty.

Do you like the car? Is it what you wanted? Look past the lies and look forward to what is ahead. You know what is good on the car, it is done. You know where you stand becasue you made it happen.

Might I add that you get a shop manual and learn the "zen" of auto maintenance?


wcphye (75 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 15:52 PDT 8 of 24
Thanks for a objective, candid reply.


phony1963 (0 ) View Listings | Report Apr-17-05 16:05 PDT 9 of 24
I am stupid, becuse I am stupid I feel like I must tear down other people and prove I am somehow better than they are.

pity me becuse I am the size of Mr Kemp


signsup (172 ) View Listings | Report Apr-18-05 09:35 PDT 10 of 24
Isn't this the part where someone is told to skick something sharp in their eye?


phony1963 (0 ) View Listings | Report Apr-18-05 10:08 PDT 11 of 24
Not sure, it might be the time I suggest you buy a Car with outdated and never really popular styling that resembles a box.

Who knows?


Eating paint chips is fun.


arkiehotrods (534 ) View Listings | Report Apr-19-05 06:23 PDT 12 of 24
According to the latest Old Cars Price Guide, the value of a 68 El Camino in #1 condition is $21,000. In #2, $14,700; in # 3 $9,450; in #4, $4,200; in #5, 2,520; in #6, $840. The price you paid for what you got is in line with price guides. The problems you describe are typical for a car that is 37 years old. I would like to see a picture of the bent ball joint. I've never seen a bent ball joint.


joguitar (179 ) View Listings | Report Apr-19-05 08:26 PDT 13 of 24
Buyer buys sight unseen, seller sells ASIS. Description of CONDITION is a matter opinion in the eyes of the beholder. Yes, it's a bummer when the description differs from your opinion but your chance to do anything about that was BEFORE you bid by having the item inspected. Now is too late and the car is yours. 'Sorry, but that's how it is in the buy/sell business.


jdog53 (11 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 18:14 PDT 14 of 24
You guys were pretty rough on this buyer.Try this one.A liscensed dealer sells a car as is,But advertizes no visible rust.When car is received the complete undercarriage of car is loaded with rust,body mounts are disentegrated,holes in the frame the size of softballs are filled with tar,sheet metal is loosely covering holes in floor and then a fresh coat of paint is applied so no rust is visible and each panel on car has 2 gallons of bondo a half inch thick.Is this pushing the envelope of truth in advertizing a little????????


tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 18:25 PDT 15 of 24
Next time, buy one that is fully restored.

Do you have $40,000 in your savings account?

Probably not. That's why you bought a junker.

You get what you pay for.


tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 18:26 PDT 16 of 24
No one feels a bit sorry for you. Like I said before, the car is 40 years old.

Nut?


jdog53 (11 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 18:40 PDT 17 of 24
Is there any intellegent people out there that know about the laws that dealers have to reveal any major problems a car has??Whether a dealer sells on ebay or off his lot, he is bound by the same laws that and his state bonding prohibits him from concealing known defects.ANYBODY????


lonjack3 (319 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 19:04 PDT 18 of 24
The laws vary from state to state, but in most, when a person (individual or dealer) sells a car as-is, he is under no obligation to disclose anything about the car. It is up to the buyer to perform their own due diligence regarding the condition of the vehicle. Once the buyer has paid for the car, he has owns it with any and all faults.

That being said, there are some aspects that are closely regulated. There are federal and state statutes regarding odometer fraud, and state statutes governing the disclosure of vehicles that have a branded title (salvage, flood, reconstructed, taxi, municipal, etc), or have sustained damage exceeding a certain percentage of the value of the vehicle, and a handful have what is commonly referred to as a "Used Car Lemon Law", which generally covers the major drive train components for a period of 30 to 90 days when purchased from a dealer.

If you puchase a used vehicle that still has a balance of the factory warranty, you may have other rights as well.

What state and what kind of car are you referring to?


tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 19:14 PDT 19 of 24
Basically, you are wrong with that assessment.

With a used motor vehicle sale, the complaints fall into two categories:

1.) failure to honor warranty
2.) fraud

Now, if the car is "as is", the warranty is totally out. All that is left is fraud.

You have to disclose known defects that are significant and known to the seller. That would include knowledge of a defect. Standing silent is absolutely no way to do business and is no defense.

"Latent defects" are those items not normally known to anyone and the seller is not responsible for those items.

In an "as is" sale, the only claim that will ever fly is fraud. Let me warn you, you better have a good case because I know a dealer here in Alabama that has won two lawsuits against individuals who claimed "fraud" before they knew what they were talking about. The dealer claimed defamation and was awarded $50,000 in damages in one case and $135,000 in another.

Old cars are full of defects and the courts know that. Just because your ride ends up junk is no one's responsibility, many times, other than you own.

You'll have to prove fraud. You can't just open your pie hole and say it.

If you do, you might get sued!


peeptoadruth (517 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 19:15 PDT 20 of 24
As much as I hate to agree with all the used car dealers who frequent this board, you're probably out of luck. All of your problems would be considered minor, except maybe the rusted out floor. If the listing stated no rust and you have a hole in the floor, then that would be seller misrepresentation. If you complain to eBay enough, you might get a partial refund from the guy. Most states have lemon laws when it comes to used cars, but unless your engine blows up or your car is unsafe to drive, you don't have a case. And most lemon laws only protect you for 30 days, so if you think you have a beef, file a complaint before the 30 days are up. And let this be a lesson to you, NEVER BUY A CAR FROM A USED CAR DEALER, ESPECIALLY ONE SELLING ON EBAY! If you want a used car, buy from a private sale locally. Used car dealers are notorious for painting and shining up crappy cars. Remember, you can polish a turd, but it's still just going to be a turd in the end!


tony1963 (387 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 19:16 PDT 21 of 24
Let me say again that the "defects" that you claim are enough to make me laugh. It's an old car and it is full of wear and tear.

You have no claim.


2*many*cars (182 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 19:56 PDT 22 of 24
Bull****

If OP is correct about extent of rust, and if seller lied about same, and buyer can prove it, redress through the court system is possible...


mainedog70 (121 ) View Listings | Report Apr-20-05 21:18 PDT 23 of 24
peeptoadruth,

The majority of dealers that I know would not do what you imply "all" used car dealers do. The damage to our reputations (and ability to earn repeat business) and the legal ramifications are just not worth it. Not to mention that most dealers are actually honest small business people despite what stereotypes are out there.

Maybe you've had a bad experience or things are different, but please don't judge an entire industry based on your narrow-mind preconceptions.

Don't believe me? - check my feedback, read the Christmas cards that I still get from old customers all over the country or call up any of my satisfied customers. You might be surprised with what you find.


wcphye (75 ) View Listings | Report Apr-21-05 00:54 PDT 24 of 24
I can prove unpatched, pristine rust through floorboard - bigger than diameter of golf ball and poorly patched rust through floorboard, too Please! Just point me in the right direction!

My son has my Bluetooth; otherwise, I would have already uploaded pictures of bent ball joints.

Try Google on bent ball joint shaft - collectively, 78,400 hits.

Regarding honest and dishonest, people are just people. A person does not have to be a particular color or ethnicity to be a racist. Likewise, what motivates a person to become honest and forthright or dishonest and a lying, cheating crook? Seems ironic crooks are always looking for the big score, but they are selling their soul's to the lowest bidder. Perhaps eBay user id 666 could comment on that?

I do know, that like individuals, businesses have personalities. And, the personality of the dominant individual/group is generally the personality of the business. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable that there are honest people in any line of work!

When so many have succumbed to the temptations, if you can hold your head high, then you should! Sometimes, all that is left is our own, individual self respect and dignity [and, of course, what we pass on].

Given much thought to, ... so stupid you stink... I think your yardstick may be wrong. I have learned the more I learn the less I find that I know; therefore, I don't believe you will find a correlation between stupid and naive. But, that is just my humble opinion.

Obviously, buyer's remorse is when someone regrets buying something. As it relates to this auction, I do not have now, nor have I ever had buyer's remorse. My only remorse is over the sorry state of affairs when someone or something does not have to live up to their direct, indirect claims. AS IS means as is and implied respective auction item is actually, in fact, in that stated condition. It does not mean without description and sold blind. AS IS is not a weapon to ward of accountablity or scrutiny for what has already been stated AS IS. AS IS is a state of being or described condition. For some of you that have had a hard time grasping my premise, I will write the following slowly, AS IS [described]. Can you fit the pieces together now.

The flip side of AS IS is that the respective item should live up to stated AS IS conditional description. Once stated AS IS, the claimer and/or mutually responsible sponsering entity should have to live up to stated condition. Only, and I repeat only, when the aforementioned is enforceable, will mis-representations and falsehoods and ripoffs cease!



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Post by Guest » December 20th, 2005, 5:23 am

You sound rather stressed. :o)

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